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  1. #7771
    Citation Envoyé par DarkNihilius Voir le message
    Phoronix a sortie quelque chose dans ce gout là : https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pa...desktops&num=1
    Ça montre surtout qu'en moyenne c'est dans un mouchoir de poche pour la plupart des jeux ^^ . Ce qui est sans doute plus cohérent que le résultat de Cyberpunk...
    Cyberpunk serait-il une exception ?

    J'aurais beaucoup aimé voir des tests sur Cinammon pour voir comment s'en sort un fork traditionnel de Gnome2.

    Sur le fond j'aime bien Gnome mais leur abandon de la métaphore de bureau me sort par les trous de nez. De fait je suis passé à KDE mais bon, j'envisageais d'aller tester Cinammon en définitive.

  2. #7772
    https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pa...nome-wayland21 décembre 2021 avec KDE/GNOME X.org/Wayland sur Ubuntu 21.10 et un GPU AMD dernière génération. Les différences sont faibles avec généralement un léger avantage pour Wayland. Sauf Hitman 2 qui a un problème non expliqué avec KDE.

    Et pour Nvidia (GNOME seulement, février 2022): https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pa...ia-510-wayland moins d'avantages pour Wayland, X.org est souvent devant.

  3. #7773
    Citation Envoyé par Nilsou Voir le message
    Ça montre surtout qu'en moyenne c'est dans un mouchoir de poche pour la plupart des jeux ^^ . Ce qui est sans doute plus cohérent que le résultat de Cyberpunk...
    Cyberpunk serait-il une exception ?

    J'aurais beaucoup aimé voir des tests sur Cinammon pour voir comment s'en sort un fork traditionnel de Gnome2.

    Sur le fond j'aime bien Gnome mais leur abandon de la métaphore de bureau me sort par les trous de nez. De fait je suis passé à KDE mais bon, j'envisageais d'aller tester Cinammon en définitive.
    Il me semble que cinnamon est en gnome 3 maintenant.
    C'est mate qui est sous gnome 2 et donne d'ailleurs de mauvais résultats.

    Il y a beaucoup de variable, ce n'est pas évident, mais je trouve ça intéressant aussi quelqu'un qui a, à priori, simplement installé les bureau, chargé les pilotes et lancé les tests. Ça représente finalement beaucoup de monde.
    Là ou phoronix est + scientifique étant donné qu'il isole un seul composant, mais ça correspond moins au vécu de la plupart des utilisateurs.
    "Les faits sont têtus."


  4. #7774
    Citation Envoyé par Laya Voir le message
    Il me semble que cinnamon est en gnome 3 maintenant.
    C'est mate qui est sous gnome 2 et donne d'ailleurs de mauvais résultats.
    Oui pardon, Cinammon c'est un fork du début de gnome 3.

    Citation Envoyé par Laya Voir le message
    Il y a beaucoup de variable, ce n'est pas évident, mais je trouve ça intéressant aussi quelqu'un qui a, à priori, simplement installé les bureau, chargé les pilotes et lancé les tests. Ça représente finalement beaucoup de monde.
    Là ou phoronix est + scientifique étant donné qu'il isole un seul composant, mais ça correspond moins au vécu de la plupart des utilisateurs.
    C'est pas faux, c'est plus le choix du jeu que je remet en cause. Dans la plupart des cas ça semble dans un mouchoir de poche, voir non significatif sur tout les scenarios. Les énormes écarts de cyberpunks sont peut être des cas très particuliers due à cyberpunk ...

  5. #7775
    Bon j'étais en train de regarder un peu les nouveauté de GTK4 pour passer l'une de mes appli de GTK3 à GTK4 et, un peu surpris par la direction prise qui me complique un brin la vie, je creuse un peu. Et pfffiou, j'avoue que j'avais manqué toute la shitstrom récente autour des choix de Gnome dans les dernières éditions :

    https://www.osnews.com/story/133955/...ity-not-happy/
    https://joshuastrobl.com/2021/09/14/...ive-ecosystem/

    Ça plus les changements survenu sur le versant QT. Ça rend un brin complexe le choix d'une bibliothèque de dessin de fenêtre aujourd'hui je trouve

    Faut-il que j'envisage d'apprendre à utiliser EFL ?

  6. #7776
    C'est du faux Drama en vrai, ça apporte bien des avantages aussi, surtout niveau performances applicatives.

    Et le "theming" qui est mort est faux également, ils passent à quelque chose de bien plus moderne et bien plus performant donc oui en effet, les anciens thèmes ne vont plus fonctionner. Mais de nouveau sont ou seront créé ou adaptés pour le nouveau système, c'est tout. A la fin tout le monde sera gagnant.

    Comme d'hab c'est principalement les "vieux cons" réfractaires au changement qui gueule pour rien sans voir les côtés positifs.

    Et accessoirement Gnome shell 42 qui vient de sortir est vraiment très bon et part dans une très bonne direction.

  7. #7777
    De ce que j'ai compris c'est surtout qu'il sera bien plus difficile de faire une appli GTK avec un look particulier sans rentrer dans les techniques de bourrin.
    Perso pour faire la transition GTK3->GTK4 je confirme que pas mal de chose simple auparavant vis à vis de l'apparence des widgets sont aujourd'hui bien complexe

    Après je ne suis pas un expert de ce drama, mais je ne sais pas, quand des distrib entière prévoit de changer de GTK ça parait difficile de parler de « faux » drama je trouve ...

  8. #7778
    Bof, il y a des distribs entières qui sont ravie et embrasse totalement GTK4 aussi.

    Sinon oui tu as raison, ils veulent maintenant garder une certaine homogénéité dans l'apparence des fenêtres et éviter d'avoir trop de truc farfelu partout. Ce qui est pour moi une bonne chose en vrai.
    Je rappelle aussi que l'énorme avantage de GTK 4 est l'accélération par le GPU. Ce que certains semblent oublier légèrement. Ça se voit très clairement sur Gnome 42 qu'à l'usage c'est bien (BIEN) plus agréable et réactif.

    C'était mignon les fenêtres et les thèmes disparates un peu partout quand on ouvrait 5 applis différentes mais ça ne faisait pas très "pro" ni homogène il faut bien l'avouer.

    Après ce n'est que mon avis, partagé par beaucoup d'autres. Certains n'aiment pas ? Bah pas de problème, il existe KDE et bien d'autres DE disponible qui leur conviendrait.

  9. #7779
    Citation Envoyé par Illynir Voir le message
    Bof, il y a des distribs entières qui sont ravie et embrasse totalement GTK4 aussi.
    De ce que j'ai compris la majeures parties des devs principaux des distribs principales ayant forké du bureau Gnome (cinammon, bungie, Mate etc) ont déja émis des critiques assez âpres. Et certaines changent donc (Bungie qui vise EFL donc), d'autres envisagent de forker GTK, d'autres regrettent de n'avoir pas le personnel pour pouvoir le faire (Mate).

    Donc je ne parlerais pas de distrib entière qui « embrasse » GTK4, pas de ce que j'ai entendu en tout cas.

    Citation Envoyé par Illynir Voir le message
    Sinon oui tu as raison, ils veulent maintenant garder une certaine homogénéité dans l'apparence des fenêtres et éviter d'avoir trop de truc farfelu partout. Ce qui est pour moi une bonne chose en vrai.
    C'est un choix de distribution de bureau ça, ça devrait n'avoir rien à voir avec GTK en lui même.

    Citation Envoyé par Illynir Voir le message
    Je rappelle aussi que l'énorme avantage de GTK 4 est l'accélération par le GPU. Ce que certains semblent oublier légèrement. Ça se voit très clairement sur Gnome 42 qu'à l'usage c'est bien (BIEN) plus agréable et réactif.
    C'est hors propos. Aucun rapport avec le fait d'avoir des thèmes.

    Citation Envoyé par Illynir Voir le message
    C'était mignon les fenêtres et les thèmes disparates un peu partout quand on ouvrait 5 applis différentes mais ça ne faisait pas très "pro" ni homogène il faut bien l'avouer.
    Dans ce cas tu n'écris pas une bibliothèque permettant de devs des applis si tu te mêle de ce qu'il faut ou non dans leur esthétique en mettant des bâtons dans les roues à ceux qui veulent faire autrement ... il peut y avoir d'excellente raison de faire autrement pour tel ou tel widget dans tel ou tel contexte.

    Citation Envoyé par Illynir Voir le message
    Après ce n'est que mon avis, partagé par beaucoup d'autres, certains n'aiment pas ? Bah pas de problème, il existe KDE et bien d'autres DE disponible qui leur conviendrait.
    Aucun rapport KDE!=QT et GTK!=Bureau Gnome.
    Dernière modification par Nilsou ; 06/04/2022 à 17h59.

  10. #7780
    - Fedora qui est une distrib Gnome en priorité embrasse pleinement GTK 4 par exemple, ce n'est pas si unanime que tu veux bien le croire.
    - Le theming n'est pas "mort" comme ils le sous-entendent, juste les anciens thèmes qui ne fonctionneront plus, rien n'interdit d'en crée des nouveaux et ça commence déjà à arriver.
    - J'ai cité l'accélération GPU pour pointer également les avantages de GTK4 plutôt que de cracher sur lui sans en voir les côtés positifs.
    - GTK4 est assez jeune, ce serait bien bien d'attendre qu'il évolue avant de décréter que c'est "nul" ou que le "theming" est mort.
    - Rien n'oblige à utiliser GTK pour son appli. C'est bien pour ça que j'ai cité KDE et QT pour ceux qui veulent des options de personnalisation à outrance.

    Bref tu sembles dire qu'il y a consensus sur GTK4 et qu'il est mal-aimé, moi je te dis que non. Rien de plus, rien de moins.

  11. #7781
    Citation Envoyé par Illynir Voir le message
    - Fedora qui est une distrib Gnome en priorité embrasse pleinement GTK 4 par exemple, ce n'est pas si unanime que tu veux bien le croire.
    Fedora embrasse GTK 4, de ce que j'ai compris, parce que l'entreprise Red Hat a décidé ceci.
    C'était déjà RedHat qui avait mis « fin », à GTK 2 :

    Voir l'excellent historique des mecs de chez MATE qui discute de GTK 4 en faisant tout l'historique depuis les débuts, c'est aussi une très bonne analyse de GTK4 :
    https://ubuntu-mate.community/t/horr...20-04/22028/57

    Je le pose là :
    Spoiler Alert!

    I wish I could post my full analysis and history of GTK here in one post, but it's far too long for that -- it's an 11-page behemoth and the character limit here is 32,000 characters per post. I hope you can stand the breaking up of the essay into two parts. Here it is in full:
    Gordon Squash on the Projected Future of GTK
    Extrapolating to GTK 4 and Beyond

    In a previous essay I provided my frank review of GTK 4, or the latest
    unstable version of said toolkit: 3.99.0. I concluded that it's a step
    in the direction that GNOME has been taking for about eight years now.
    In this installment of my messages, I'd like to shed light on what I
    think is the direction GTK will take -- not just now, but years into
    the future of the project.

    To do so I will use history as my guide: the past history of GTK --
    looking over not just 10 years, but over more than 20 years of history
    to find out what the next 10 years and one major release may bring us.

    DISCLAIMER: Please note that I do not posess any form of crystal
    ball, so my projection may be entirely wrong. Only time will tell.
    Where are we today?

    GTK is in a situation today which it has never experienced before. For
    every other major move the GTK community makes, there are between 1 and
    10 nasty remarks about the major move from other members of the
    community. Some say that the GTK team makes unilateral decisions based
    solely on their priorities, without consulting any other section of the
    community first. Others claim that many of their explanations for why
    they changed something are totally unbased and that their explanations
    are mere excuses in disguise. Few open-source projects have ever been
    so fervently detracted in the same manner that GTK and GNOME have been.
    As of this writing, even Linus Torvalds continues to disfavor GNOME due
    to its strikingly "unappealing" interface.

    Futhermore, many continue to pine for days gone by when "GTK" meant
    "GTK+ 2". These advocates for GTK+ 2 were satisfied with GTK as it
    stood in the months before GTK+ 3 was released. Or were they?

    Over the next few sections I'd like to show you why I think it's largely
    invalid -- though not totally invalid -- to group favored and disfavored
    versions of GTK together into major number distinctions such as "GTK+ 2"
    or "GTK+ 3". However, I will warn you that this article is extremely
    long and detailed, so if you already know about any of this content you
    may consider skipping paragraphs or even pages of information.
    A brief history of GTK in "prehistoric" times

    Perhaps many of us have heard that GTK is a direct descendant of the
    image editing program the GIMP. The fact is, the GTK as we know it today
    is not the GTK that was the "Gimp ToolKit" (that's where it got its name)
    in very many ways at all.

    In fact, initially the GIMP didn't use GTK at all. When Spencer Kimball
    and Peter Mattis began writing the GIMP as a class project while studying
    at the University of California Berkeley, they initially used the popular
    and then-closed-source Motif graphical toolkit. It was proprietary and
    purchasing a license for the software could be costly; however they used
    the version of Motif licensed to the school.

    Motif was capable of creating workable user interfaces with relatively
    little code (prior to Motif and other widget toolkits, it was often
    necessary to write hundreds or even thousands of lines of code just to
    draw a button onscreen). However, Motif had several shortcomings which
    made it difficult to write an image manipulation program with it. In
    response to Motif's shortcomings, Mattis and Kimball proceeded to
    distance themselves from Motif and instead started writing a widget
    toolkit better adapted to graphics manipulation. Since Motif was closed
    source, Mattis and Kimball could not base their toolkit in any way on
    real Motif source code. However, they did base some of the application
    programming interface, or mechanism for using the toolkit in programs,
    on the application programming interface of Motif. They also designed
    their widget toolkit so that it looked roughly similar to Motif, complete
    with the pseudo-3D look of the widgets. They called their widget toolkit
    "GTK", for "Gimp ToolKit".

    But when their class project was turned in and they completed their exam,
    they had no idea initially what to do with their labor which they called
    the "General Image Manipulation Program", or the GIMP, and the GTK.
    Seeing that they had spent a lot of time on these programs, they
    open-sourced the GIMP and by extension the GTK, licensing both under the
    open-source GNU GPL license. They open-sourced the program so that at
    least others could reap the benefits of their work.

    But this was a game changer in multiple respects: For one, an image
    manipulation program, albeit only a moderately sophisticated one at the
    time, had just been open-sourced. This meant that other people could
    contribute code to the GIMP and see their changes integrated into the
    next release of the GIMP. Another aspect of the open sourcing was the
    fact that now there was a widget toolkit which was fully open sourced.
    At the time, another widget toolkit called Qt had recently been making
    tidal waves, but it too was largely closed source, maintained by a
    Norwegian company known as Trolltech. As previously stated, Motif was
    the industry-standard toolkit of the time, but was also closed source,
    as was another increasingly popular toolkit of the time, Sun's OpenLooks.
    Now there was one contender in the toolkit race which was open source and
    freely available. Like the GIMP, the GTK was increasingly embraced by
    the community.

    As time went on, it became clear that many toolkits -- including Motif
    and, at the time, GTK -- contained a lot of unnecessary code duplication.
    A widget for a toggle button (a special type of button which alternates
    between one of two states when clicked) might contain a lot of duplicate
    code carried over from the widget for a plain button. With object-oriented
    programming being a hot topic in programming and academic circles at the
    time, the focus was on being as wasteless as possible when writing code for
    the GTK. Thus Mattis et al. set to work converting the GTK to code that
    was somewhat more object-oriented in spirit, and the GTK+, or GTK Improved,
    was formed. The name has stuck up to -- but not including -- the present
    day.

    At about the same time that the GTK was being updated to the GTK+,
    shockwaves hit the community: In 1996, Martin Gräßlin announced that he
    was working on an attractive desktop environment for UNIX-like systems.
    His message was generally greeted with applause. However, devoted free
    software advocates disagreed with his choice to use the then-proprietary
    Qt toolkit as a base for his project. Sensing that the KDE could have
    inadvertently led to a licensing nightmare on otherwise open-source UNIX-
    like operating systems, a few months later the GNU project announced that
    it would begin development of a competing desktop environment known as
    GNOME. GNOME would be based on GTK+ and would thus be fully open source.

    This was the first time that GTK+ was used for anything other than for
    the GIMP. At that time, the GNU project was also working on an
    open-source Motif clone, wittily named LessTif. However, LessTif and
    Motif both lacked several key features required by a desktop environment;
    hence, the GNOME project chose to use GTK+. Simultaneously, Mattis and
    Kimball were losing interest in the GIMP and GTK+ and were also on to
    other projects, so they were looking for a group to take care of both.
    The GNU eventually picked up development of both projects and renamed
    the GIMP to the "GNU Image Manipulation Program", which happened to also
    spell GIMP.

    By the time GTK+ 1.0.0 was released by the GNU project in April 1998,
    Mattis had not contributed since September of the previous year. By
    this point, the GIMP team had evidently passed control of the GTK on
    to the GNU project finally. Thus the GTK, or the GTK+ more accurately,
    ceased to exist as the product of the GIMP team.
    The early modern era: GTK+ 1.0.0 through GTK+ 1.2

    Despite the GIMP team not contributing much to GTK+ after 1.0.0 was
    released, GTK+ continued to be called "GTK+", not "GTK+ 1" or "the GNOME
    toolkit". (In error, some people called the GTK+ "the GNOME toolkit" or
    "the GIMP toolkit", but in reality it already meant nothing more than the
    letters themselves.) The GIMP continued to use GTK+, and in the first
    few years GTK+ quite a bit resembled the original GIMP product.

    Though it brought some changes, GTK+ 1.2 was not a particularly sweeping
    change relative to GTK+ 1.0. The chief differences were minor, mostly
    technical programming nuances rather than user interface changes. But
    already some could sense a change coming: For one thing, though the
    default look and feel still resembled Motif, Red Hat introduced a new
    theme called Raleigh which looked more modern. Red Hat embraced Raleigh
    whenever they packaged GTK+, and around this version they started
    investing large pools of resources into perfecting GTK+ and GNOME in
    general.

    Red Hat became so invested in GNOME and GTK+ that they started to leave
    the other major desktop environment, KDE, behind. Contemporary rumors
    indicate Red Hat may have criticized KDE by referring to it using a word
    inappropriate to bring up in this article. What matters though is that
    by the time GTK+ 1.2 was released, Red Hat had a vested interest in GTK+
    and GNOME, and the GNU project's interest progressively faded over a
    period of years.
    The start of the peak: GTK+ 2.0.0 to GTK+ 2.8

    After GTK+ 1.2's release in 1999, work began on a major version of GTK+,
    one which some still pine for today: GTK+ 2. Called 1.3 while still in
    development, it was ultimately released in March 2002. Though it was a
    very major change from a programmer's perspective and it took a long time
    for programmers to convert their programs to use GTK+ 2, on the user
    interface GTK+ 2 was not much different initially from GTK+ 1.2 -- or
    even GTK+ 1.0 for that matter. One of the most striking differences was
    the use of the Raleigh theme by default, replacing the old-fashioned
    looking (even by then) Motif-esque theme. Again, this change was
    courtesy of Red Hat -- and I personally am in favor of the change because
    it improved the appearance of applications. Another welcome and visible
    change was the upgrade to slightly more modern icons. All in all, once
    applications were ported to use GTK+ 2 and users actually got a chance to
    see the improvements made by GTK+ 2, it was greeted with much fanfare.

    Then the sweeping changes began. Version 2.4 introduced several new
    features, among them a brand new, modern-looking file chooser. GTK+ 2.8
    was special in that the changes it brought were mainly visible only to
    the eagle-eyed observer -- instead of rendering onscreen elements using a
    classical method which produced less-than-smooth results, GTK+ switched
    to mostly using Cairo, a new graphics library with support for several
    important graphics features. One of these features was antialiasing --
    the practice of "fuzzing" the picture very slightly to reduce the grainy
    "pixellation" which used to plague graphics software; the other main
    feature was media independence -- the ability for the same code to
    draw the same shape whether the ultimate destination for the image was a
    printer, a normal computer monitor, a plotter, an image file... you name
    it; Cairo could support it.

    The adoptance of Cairo excited programmers considerably, since now the
    printing architecture could be greatly simplified. Previously, the
    printing mechanism was very complicated and involved using code unlike
    that for drawing onscreen; after Cairo was adopted, printing could be
    accomplished with only a slight amount of code on top of what was
    already being used to draw onscreen.
    The peak: GTK+ 2.10 through GTK+ 2.18

    By the time GTK+ 2.10 was released, Cairo was used by GTK+ for practically
    all rendering, whether onscreen or in print form. New Linux distributions
    (the name given to distributions of the Linux kernel plus other open-source
    software including GNU) had been popping up long before GTK+ 2.10 was
    released in late August 2006. Red Hat had long been the champion in the
    Linux distribution field. However, few distributions had gained popularity
    as quickly as Ubuntu, whose first release was announced in October 2004.
    By the end of 2006 Ubuntu had gained a significant following due to its
    ease of use -- and the GNOME desktop used by the distribution, GNOME still
    being based on the GTK+ (but this time version 2), was at the center of
    the usability improvements. By this time, most distributions had removed
    GTK+ 1.2 and 1.0 from their repositories of software, leaving only GTK+ 2.
    Even Debian, long known to be conservative and careful about including
    only software that was well-tested, started preparing for the eventual
    elimination of GTK+ 1.2, the elimination finally taking place in very late
    2007.

    As GNOME progressively became the most popular desktop environment on
    UNIX-like operating systems, GTK+ 2's populartity came with GNOME's.
    By this point in time, hundreds of people had contributed to both projects
    and new features were implemented in each new release, sometimes as many
    as 20 in jam-packed releases. What's more, more projects than just GNOME
    and the GIMP were utilizing GTK+ by now -- entire other desktop
    environments such as XFCE had been using GTK+ since about 2000, while
    entirely new desktop environments such as LXDE used GTK+ from the start.
    Application developers were writing their programs using GTK+ to get
    widespread adoptance of their applications -- at one point it seemed the
    GNOME project had too many applications, since the number of applications
    in the project was starting to dwarf the number of KDE applications. (And
    that is saying a lot: At the time, the bar for the quality of new KDE
    applications was, quite frankly, set extremely low.)

    Despite it not seeming like an especially important point, theme developers
    also enjoyed GNOME. Theme developers had at their disposal a number of
    so-called "theme engines" -- libraries of code which could be used to
    produce a working theme, as long as the theme designer provided a list of
    stylistic parameters to the theme engine such as what colors to use in the
    theme. Because theme designers did not necessarily need to write any
    actual code to produce a working theme, theme designers jumped on GNOME and
    produced dozens if not hundreds of themes for GNOME. By extension, other
    desktop environments could use the same themes that were used primarily
    for GNOME, because the themes were really nothing more than GTK+ themes.
    Eventually, developers from all of the major desktop environment
    development teams were writing themes, theme engines, and even code for
    GTK+ -- and seeing their changes become part of GTK+ and, sometimes, part
    of the GNOME theme collection. This was the peak of GTK+'s popularity.
    The long-anticipated successor: GTK+ 3 is on the way

    Shortly after GTK+ 2 was first released in 2002, the GTK+ documentation
    included a section on porting applications to use GTK+ 2 when they had
    formerly been using GTK+ 1.2 or even 1.0:

    GTK+ changed fairly substantially from version 1.2 to 2.0, much
    more so than from 1.0 to 1.2. Subsequent updates (possibilities
    are 2.0 to 2.2, 2.2 to 2.4, then to 3.0) will almost certainly
    be much, much smaller.

    In reality, GTK+ 3.0 would take many more years to materialize than the
    GTK+ developers thought it would. If GTK+ 3.0 had appeared when they
    originally figured it would, then GTK+ 3.0 would have been released
    circa December 2004. In reality it would be released more than six years
    after that proposed date.

    By 2007, conversation among the GTK+ community about GTK+ 3 resurfaced.
    Initially, the general consensus was that GTK+ 3 would not be much
    different from GTK+ 2 from the developer's perspective. However, by
    2008 it became clear that the World Wide Web was becoming far more
    graphical than it had once been. At one time, the Web served solely to
    provide textual information and maybe a few images and, at the very most,
    video and animation with audio. Despite the adoptance of multimedia on
    Web pages, it took until consumer computers became more powerful before
    the multimedia could be plastered everywhere on the Web pages --
    literally, from one perspective. By 2008 Web pages were becoming so
    fancy and colorful that some people recognized that the Web pages were
    starting to look less like drab black text on a white background, and
    more like the user's main desktop environment.

    The technology which permitted such flexible styling of Web pages was
    CSS. On one level, CSS is nothing more than a textual means of
    expressing style information. But the genius is in the way the style
    information is inherited: In HTML, the language used to lay out Web
    pages, a Web page is hierarchical; a block of bold text may be enclosed
    in a paragraph of otherwise unstyled text, for example. CSS gives the
    Web page designer the ability to style entire blocks of Web pages and
    all of its "children" blocks too. Or CSS can be used to just style
    one or two elements. The inheritance properties of CSS make it ideal
    for styling Web pages, where there may be tens of thousands of these
    blocks, or "elements", all on one page and many of them share style
    properties in common, such as the color of the text or the alignment of
    the elements themselves.

    As we found out earlier, GTK+ is also very hierarchical. A window may
    contain container widgets, special widgets which can be used to size
    and dimension other widgets onscreen, even effectively hiding some from
    view. A window itself is a container widget; a widget dimensioned by
    a parent container widget is said to be contained in that container
    widget. At this, one GTK+ developer thought (maybe it was an original
    thought, perhaps not -- we may never know): Why not style widgets using
    CSS?

    The idea attracted enough attention that a new theme engine for GTK+ 2
    was written -- this time based around CSS styling, however. It did not
    become successful, however, because most themes were already written
    in the traditional form and not using CSS. Additionally, GTK+ provided
    even more styling flexibility than what CSS could afford at the time.
    Ultimately, only a few themes were written for GTK+ 2 using CSS, most of
    which were written by the author of the CSS theme engine.

    Meanwhile, as more details of the upcoming GTK+ 3 became known, it was
    eventually revealed that GTK+ 3 would most likely be styled using CSS --
    except not merely as a theme engine, but integrated into GTK+ 3 itself.
    Additionally, extensions would be made to the CSS parser in GTK+ 3 to
    ensure that sufficient styling capabilities were available to themes and
    applications alike. Though some already felt uneasy about the coming
    change, many at the time felt it was a change for the better.
    Additionally, it was planned to continue supporting traditional themes
    and theme engines too.
    Closing in: GTK+ 3 in the later months of development

    By 2011, GTK+ 2 was the most widely used graphical toolkit on UNIX-like
    operating systems. Its popularity seemingly could not be greater. But
    it had been nine years since a new major release had been produced, and
    many believed that some former release of GTK+ 2, possibly GTK+ 2.8,
    should have been named "GTK+ 3" due to its dissimilarity to previous
    versions. But by 2011 it was too late to rename any version of GTK+ 2
    to a new major version, because GTK+ 3 was supposedly around the corner.
    Or was it?

    On the last day of January 2011, another version of GTK+ 2 was released,
    seemingly in a slight panic: GTK+ 2.24. In many ways this release was
    never meant to exist: GTK+ 3 was supposed to have been released by
    December 2010. And yet GTK+ 3 had not been released even by the end of
    January 2011, much less December 2010. What was going on?

    Among the many problems the GTK+ team faced, they realized that the CSS
    styling infrastructure did not integrate well with the old theme engine
    system. After much discussion, the package of popular GTK+ theme engines
    maintained by the GTK+ team for GTK+ 3 was dropped. In addition, the
    default theme, long known as Raleigh by this time, was hurriedly
    rewritten for GTK+ 3 in CSS. The hurried nature of the operation,
    combined with the fact that the theme was supposed to look "more modern",
    lead to a less-than-perfect default appearance for GTK+ 3. But this was
    not a significant problem for GNOME, because in parallel they were
    working on a theme written from the ground up to look modern. The theme
    was originally called GNOME3, but was soon renamed Adwaita.

    A few days later, on February 10, 2011, GTK+ 3.0.0 was finally released.
    But before GTK+ 3.0 was finally released, the third major release of
    GNOME, dubbed GNOME 3, was produced. It was specially optimized to have
    a "more modern" user interface -- one adapted properly to touchscreens,
    becoming ever more popular at that time. In a strange twist which few
    people realize, the first few versions of GNOME 3 actually used GTK+ 2,
    because GTK+ 3 was not yet stable enough for production use. So for a
    time it was entirely possible to run a GNOME 3 system with classic
    GTK+ 2 themes, most notably Clearlooks, which had become the default
    GNOME 2 theme years earlier. But the rest of the user interface was
    clearly not intended to be used in a more traditional setup. Initially
    GNOME 3 sold itself as being more "keyboard-oriented" than most desktop
    environments; eventually it became clear that it was only more
    touchscreen-friendly.
    What was all the hype about anyway: GTK+ 3.0 through GTK+ 3.8

    While GNOME 3 continued to disappoint users and Linux distributors alike,
    GTK+ 3 was just as disappointing to many application developers. Besides
    the removal of features deprecated in GTK+ 2 (including the old-style,
    non-Cairo drawing system, and the "ruler" widget which was used chiefly
    by the GIMP by this point), and additionally the addition of CSS styling,
    GTK+ 3 seemed to many people just to be much ado about nothing. Many
    GTK+-based projects did not immediately embrace GTK+ 3 because it seemed
    to have flopped -- whereas GTK+ 2 was not expected to have been much,
    GTK+ 3 had been promoted for years and it had not lived up to its name.
    Despite this hurdle, one of the first users of GTK+ 3 besides GNOME was
    Mozilla, which began work on a GTK+ 3 port of its applications by late
    March 2011. But like most other projects which jumped into the game
    early, no Mozilla applications were officially built with GTK+ 3 for
    years to come.

    In addition, the fact that only GNOME was actually seriously being ported
    to GTK+ 3 at the time led many to believe that GTK+ 3 was the mere product
    of GNOME developers -- and even at that time, the skeptics were correct.
    Furthermore as GNOME 2 users failed to upgrade to GNOME 3, the user base
    of GTK+ 3 was limited solely to users and developers in favor of GNOME 3,
    as if there were any outsiders present from the start of GTK+ 3's release.
    Because of this, the GTK+ 3 team believed that they could do whatever they
    wanted to do in GTK+ 3 -- making it more GNOME-centric and forgetting
    about the rest of the community, for example. If it's just us using this
    GTK+ 3 toolkit, then why not adapt it to us and us solely?

    Even theme designers (for the most part) did not like the CSS styling:
    Writing a new theme no longer required just supplying some parameters to
    one or more pre-made theme engines; it required copying all the CSS code
    from one theme, often hundreds of kilobytes of it, and rewriting the CSS
    code slightly. CSS files could not be shared, unlike theme engines which
    could be shared between one theme and another. In addition, oftentimes
    a GTK+ 3 theme would require a number of image files, since some widgets
    were complicated enough that they did not adapt well to pure CSS. Some
    theme developers were lazy and took screenshots of parts of old widgets
    drawn using their old theme engines; others took the time to recreate
    their widgets in scalable image form as SVGs. The former had the
    disadvantage that widgets looked fine when rendered normally, but when
    accidentally rendered too large or too small, even the tiniest amounts
    by applications like Mozilla, they would look blurry and their exact
    meaning would be unclear. SVGs looked good even scaled up or down, but
    they had the disadvantage that they too were often created shabbily, and
    even when properly drawn they could cumulatively consume hundreds of
    kilobytes of disk space. On the one hand, disk space was not a major
    concern anymore; but on the other hand themes could easily add up to
    noticeably increase the size of the GTK+ library if built in. All in
    all, the built-in themes in a modern version of GTK+ 3 total up to 2 MB
    themselves -- while the size of the library itself, including the
    themes embedded within, is 8 MB. So these themes effectively increase
    the size of the library by 33% -- a sizeable factor considering that the
    default theme used by GTK+ 2 amounted to 120 KB of compiled code, which
    is just 2.4% of the 5 MB GTK+ 2 library.

    Inspiration, isolation and alienation: GTK+ 3.10 to GTK+ 3.14

    With almost nobody actually using GTK+ 3 other than GNOME, the GTK+ /
    GNOME developers realized they were alienated. At first, after releasing
    GTK+ 3.0.0 they patiently waited for anybody to dare port their software.
    Almost nobody dared. Mozilla was working on the GTK+ 3 backend early on,
    but failed to officially support GTK+ 3 in their prebuilt versions. The
    reason? Mozilla knew that many Linux systems (by this time other
    UNIX-like operating system users were in the minority) lacked an installed
    version of GTK+ 3, or at least they were not comfortable releasing a GTK+
    3 version of their applications before GTK+ 2 desktops started to disappear.
    By 2015 Mozilla had started releasing GTK+ 3-based versions of their
    applications.

    Ubuntu's Unity desktop environment also ported to GTK+ 3 fairly early on.
    Though initially it used GTK+ 2, certainly by 2012 it required GTK+ 3.
    But Unity was not much of an endorsement: Some people believed it was
    better than GNOME 3, sure. But many others believed it was nothing more
    than GNOME 3 in disguise. With developers so slowly coming out with
    GTK+ 3 versions of their applications, it seemed like nobody would ever
    port to GTK+ 3. Years before, when GTK+ 2 was still relatively new,
    only a minority of applications still used GTK+ 1 -- most were ported
    quickly to GTK+ 2. Yet by this time application developers were dragging
    their feet because they felt duped by the excitement surrounding GTK+ 3 --
    and they saw what was coming after that disappointing release.

    By 2013, the GNOME team hardly saw any reason to keep very much of the
    interface traditional, since only GNOME and a few other software packages
    used it yet -- the truly big names such as the GIMP, Inkscape and VMWare
    were yet to come. Because of this sticky situation, they decided to add
    and remove features as they saw fit without asking the rest of the
    community first. (Notification is one thing; participation in the
    decision-making process is another completely different matter.) One of
    the first products of their GNOME-ization was the header bar, a widget
    which remotely resembled a window title bar but was taller and had enough
    space to include other widgets. It also replaced the ordinary title bar,
    replicating the Close button and other window controls on the side of the
    widget. Sometimes, especially in dialogs, the Close button would not
    even be present, and the buttons that used to be at the bottom of the
    dialog would be moved to the top of the header bar instead. This worked
    well for touchscreen users -- larger onscreen elements make it easier to
    tap on the correct one -- but was disfavorable to everyone else, who was
    used to mouse muscle memory.

    Furthermore, several settings and even entire objects and widgets were
    deprecated in subsequent versions. One of these was the GtkStatusIcon,
    which could be used to display an icon in the status bar provided by
    most operating systems. It was removed in version 3.14 without published
    grounds. Also in version 3.10, a setting to alter the size of icons in
    buttons, menu items, and the like was removed, and unconfigurable values
    were hard-coded into GTK+. This may not have been such a bad thing, but
    the GTK+ developers chose to use microscopic icon sizes for buttons and
    menus, which led to complaints from people who are marginally visually
    impaired but they don't like to wear glasses all the time. Over half a
    dozen settings were deprecated and promptly ignored by GTK+ 3.10, including
    gtk-auto-mnemonics, gtk-button-images, gtk-can-change-accels,
    gtk-color-palette, gtk-color-scheme, gtk-enable-mnemonics, and
    gtk-menu-images. Respectively, these settings were formerly used for:

    gtk-auto-mnemonics: Whether keyboard shortcut mnemonics should be
    automatically underlined when the user presses the shortcut key,
    typically Alt.

    gtk-button-images: Whether images should be shown on buttons.

    gtk-can-change-accels: Whether the user can edit the keyboard
    shortcut for a menu item simply by typing the new shortcut while
    the mouse pointer is hovering over the menu item.

    gtk-color-palette: The set of colors shown by default in the color
    selector. Note that the more modern color selector does not use this
    property.

    gtk-color-scheme: The set of colors used by the theme. Used to
    produce color variants of a theme. This option was actually removed
    in version 3.8.

    gtk-enable-mnemonics: Whether keyboard shortcut mnemonics should
    be underlined at all times.

    gtk-menu-images: Whether images should be shown on menu items.

    The sudden contention for only the GNOME developers themselves was not
    only quixotic, it served to further distance GTK+ 3 from other projects!
    If the GNOME developers believed it was only rightful that they optimize
    the GTK+ for themselves, then why should anybody else get on board with
    GTK+ 3?
    Red Hat turns the tables: GTK+ 3.16 through GTK+ 3.20

    So, if GTK+ 3 flopped, how are we where we are today, with GTK+ 3 suddenly
    being forced down our throats? It turns out it was probably started by
    Red Hat. By 2015, Red Hat was already indicating that it was planning on
    removing GTK+ 2 from its repositories and, by extension, its technical
    support repertoire. So Red Hat basically said that they would no longer
    offer companies who paid for technical support any support for GTK+ 2.

    Needless to say, this started a panic. Many developers realized that they
    needed to get their act in gear and port to GTK+ 3 if they wanted to be
    taken seriously. This was about the time that Inkscape and VMWare ported
    to GTK+ 3. It was also when Mozilla began offering official builds of
    their applications built with GTK+ 3. A large enough corporate entity
    can control all of us if it wants to.

    But some projects remained stubborn. Most notably, the GIMP did not
    produce a GTK+ 3 version; they were fairly anti-GTK+ 3 even from the
    very start. Even today, the GIMP still has not provided a stable
    release built with GTK+ 3, although work progresses on a port as we
    speak.

    GTK+ 3 continued to develop into a more and more touchscreen-friendly
    interface, mandating more and more rules from the GNOME Human Interface
    Guidelines on all GTK+ 3 applications. One of the watershed moments of
    GTK+ 3 was when the scrolling system was redesigned. Though it meant
    that touchscreen (and later touchpad) users could scroll up and down
    a page of text smoothly (a mechanism known as "kinetic scrolling"), many
    other aspects of the scrolling system were inadvertently broken. For
    one, the scrollbar steppers ceased to scroll by reasonable amounts at
    a time; they only scrolled by single pixels at a time, though this change
    was likely unnoticed because Adwaita, the default GTK+ theme by this time,
    did not display any scrollbar steppers. Initially, when any part of the
    scrollbar was clicked on, the slider would immediately jump to that
    exact location on the page; this change was later reverted (actually, a
    setting was instead put in place) when a protest by the community
    threatened to become a virtual riot. And the scrolling behavior brought
    with it the unfortunate truth that scrolling became painfully slow on
    older hardware.
    The death of GTK+ 2 and the conception of GTK+ 4: GTK+ 3.22 & 3.24

    By 2016, already there was discussion about what GTK+ 4 would bring.
    Very early on, it was realized even by the GTK+ developers that GTK+ 3
    was kind of slow. Hence, to counteract the sluggishness of GTK+ 3,
    version 4 would take more advantage of the graphics hardware in the
    host computer -- while leaving old graphics hardware behind. The plans
    were drawn up and GTK+ 4 development began.

    At some point, a GTK+ developer realized that the plus sign on the GTK+
    name was too hard to type, so the historic decision was finally made to
    drop the plus sign from a later development version of GTK+ 4. Hence
    GTK 4 is the new name for the up-and-coming graphical toolkit.

    At about the same time GTK+ 4 was announced, a new version of GTK+ 3 came
    out: GTK+ 3.22. This was staged to be the last version of GTK+ 3. In
    reality, like in 2011 with GTK+ 2.24, GTK 4 needed more time to mature
    and thus GTK+ 3.24 was released eventually.

    It's also important to note that GTK+ 2 is not alive and well anymore.
    In 2018, the last release of GTK+ 2 was produced: GTK+ 2.24.32. It was
    announced that GTK+ 2 would never be released again. By 2020, the present
    year as I write this, some distributions had actually, finally, started
    dropping GTK+ 2 from their repositories. Fedora, being Red Hat-sponsored,
    was one of the first to do so. Finally, GTK+ 2 had been beaten in an
    18-year-long battle.
    What does this all mean for the future?

    First of all, I am proud of you if you managed to get all the way to here
    without passing out first. That was a lot of material about history, and
    I could forgive you if you didn't read everything. That said, I'll be
    using history as my prediction system, so if you don't understand
    something that I'm saying, just look back up at the history list.

    That said, I think we should look at where GTK 4 will be in a few years
    from now, perhaps around version 4.10. As I already said, a lot changed
    in GTK+ 2 from its beginning until its end, and a lot has changed with
    GTK+ 3 from the time of GTK+ 3.0.0 through the time of 3.14. As I already
    mentioned, GTK+ 3.0.0 was actually still pretty conservative; it took
    until version 3.8 or so before things really started going haywire, so to
    speak.

    Taking GTK+ 3 as an example, I think many features of GTK 4 that were not
    removed initially, such as the toolbars (albeit in a crude form now) and
    the menu bars (excuse me -- popover menu bars), will be deprecated by
    GTK 4.10 or whereabouts. Sure, when a feature is deprecated, it is not
    removed immediately; you can theoretically continue using the feature.
    But when GTK 5 comes out, the feature is gone for good (at least from GTK
    5). Plus, some deprecated features of GTK+ 3 no longer work anyway: All
    of the settings which I quoted above as being "removed" were just
    deprecated, but they have effectively been removed because GTK+ will not
    react to any value set in any of those settings. Furthermore, take a look
    at this deprecated style property for menu items with a checkbox next to
    them: The indicator-size property for years would contain the actual
    width of the checkbox itself in pixels. A typical value was 16, but the
    value for my GTK+ 3 theme that I'm using right now (TraditionalOk) is 14.
    Now, why does this matter? Well, Mozilla applications rely on the value
    of this property to know how large to draw the checkbox in the menu.
    Prior to GTK+ 3.20, this indicator-size property had a meaningful
    value. By GTK+ 3.20, the property had been deprecated and no longer was
    a source of useful information; it always reflected that the checkbox
    width was 16 pixels, even if it was actually 14! Why does this all make
    any difference, besides having slightly big checkboxes? Well, the theme
    I'm using does not use vector graphics very much; the checkbox image is
    a standard, unscalable raster image, so if a Mozilla application is duped
    into drawing this indicator 16 pixels wide (which they are duped), then
    the indicator is scaled up and looks fuzzy, and the result is I can't
    always tell what state a checkbox is in anymore. That's the significance.

    Come to think of it, deprecating and then immediately (intentionally)
    breaking a feature is thoughtless. There is almost no point to
    deprecating the feature as opposed to simply eliminating it. But I
    digress.

    So my thought is that the (already meager) toolbar and popover menu
    support that we do have will probably be broken in some way by GTK+ 4.10.
    It's really not hard to imagine that -- as I already mentioned in my
    previous article, even the GTK 4 demo application does not use the new
    "toolbar style class". And the error actually appeared in two demo
    applications, not just one. It's not hard to add the style class to the
    applications; at most it's three lines of code added to each application.

    Futhermore, we are heading into an era of changes being made without
    formal announcements of any kind. Think of the scrollbar steppers having
    gone missing without any obvious documentation about that. In fact, the
    documentation even misleadingly still documents the steppers. On the
    other hand, maybe it will get documented when GTK 4.0.0 actually comes
    out later this year, perhaps September 25th or whereabouts.

    Now you may be thinking, "Well, we've got years to go on this issue; why
    are you so worried about GTK 4 as of yet?" Well, by the time GTK 4.0.0
    actually does come out, the latest version of GTK+ 3 will probably be
    3.24.23. As for the significance of that version number, few versions of
    GTK have ever had a micro version number that high. (The micro version
    of a release is the rightmost of the three digits in the version number.)
    GTK+ 2.24 wound up reaching micro version 32, but that was a very special
    exception; previously it was rare to go above 15. And unlike GTK+ 2.24,
    GTK+ 3.24 was not released almost in tandem with GTK 4.0.0; in fact, the
    first release of GTK+ 3.24 was in early 2019, by now a year and a half
    ago. Furthermore, GTK+ 3.24 has not been getting very many bug fixes or
    changes applied to it lately; each release brings relatively minor
    changes, even by micro version standards. And last but not least, I think
    GTK 4 is roughly what the GTK team wanted GTK+ 3 to be like all along.
    So no, I do not think that GTK+ 3 will continue much longer.

    And you may now be thinking, "Maintenance schmaintenance! Who cares if
    it's actively maintained?" But if you're asking this question, I direct
    you to immediately try to compile GTK+ 3.0.0 on a modern operating system.
    Chances are the compilation process will not work. It's because GTK+
    3.0.0 depends on a feature in GDK-PixBuf (basically, the GTK image
    handling library) which was not deprecated back in 2011 but is deprecated
    now. To use the feature now requires a little extra code to ensure some
    deprecated features are enabled. So point number 1 is that the code you
    save up today may not work for you in a few years. (I tend to think of
    software as being like money, and the progress of software development as
    being inflation. In such a system, software is okay to use as long as
    you don't attempt to hold onto it; if you do, it decreases in value until
    it eventually becomes nearly worthless.)

    The other problem with unmaintained software is that you basically are
    committing yourself to putting up with the same bugs in the same software
    for years to come -- without any likelihood that the bugs will be ironed
    out in the next release, or the release after that. I have far too much
    experience with this issue, and thus I have a slight sour taste in my
    mouth about doing it all over again. You wouldn't have guessed how
    infuriating GNOME 2 could be if you had to put up with the same bugs
    over and over again... So point number 2 is that the software may drive
    you nuts over time and you might be another reluctant adopter of GTK 4
    eventually.

    And as for the future concerning Wayland: I suspect the GNOME developers
    are frustrated that X is still used today despite it being more than 35
    years old. Very obviously, GNOME has launched a campaign to make the
    GNOME experience better on Wayland than on X. (I've used the most modern
    versions of GNOME to an extent. The Wayland version is much faster and
    generally smoother than the version for X.) GTK 4 is not as smooth
    sailing on X as it is on Wayland; there are numerous flaws, and based on
    how GNOME bug reports have gone in the past, either the developers are
    interested in patching the flaw or they're not. And if they're not, then
    the bug report will stay open until the bug is not an issue -- perhaps
    because by then they've decided the X backend is buggy enough -- sorry,
    I mean too buggy -- that nobody uses it anymore and they therefore have
    no need to continue "maintaining" it. I suspect by GTK 4.16 (if it ever
    gets to that high a version number) that the X backend will be deprecated
    or even removed already, and almost certainly will be removed by GTK 5.
    Think of when support for Mir (Ubuntu's windowing system similar to
    Wayland) was dropped in 2019 -- that was not in a major release, that was
    in the (relatively) minor release of GTK+ 3.24. Sure, almost nobody
    still used Mir, since it went out of vogue when Ubuntu dropped their own
    Unity desktop years earlier; but my prediction is that like Mir, X will
    also become obsolete by 2030 or whereabouts, at least to the GNOME
    community who only need to run GNOME applications.
    In conclusion

    I envision a time from now, maybe around 2030, when GTK 4 has all
    non-GNOME-centric features deprecated and GTK 5 is the final major version
    of GTK. At that point, the only thing to maintain in GTK 5 is bug fixes,
    platform changes, et cetera, not any feature changes. I have reason to
    believe that by 2030, GTK will have so few users left (because everyone
    else has deserted for Qt or something) that the only users it will have
    left are those who actually use GNOME. My ultimate prediction is that
    within about three years after GTK 5 is released, touchscreens will go
    out of vogue and GTK and GNOME will collapse. At that point, anyone left
    in the sinking boat will be astonished that such a great piece of software
    could meet such a terrible end. In the end though, the rest of us will
    realize that software -- and any product for that matter -- is not great
    because of its history:

    Software is great because of its content and, ultimately, because of
    its management.

    Suppose you have a company with a good reputation. All that your
    customers can think of is how great the company is. Then you sell your
    company off to an apparently well-intentioned investor, and it turns out
    that the investor is only interested in reaping the profits from the
    company and turns the company into a disaster. This is not a good
    company anymore; it was a good company, but your nostalgia is not going
    to buy you anything, not even one of their products. And it certainly is
    not going to buy you anything when the company files for bankruptcy due
    to mismanagement. A company is defined by who the people are -- not by
    who the people were -- at least in the modern world.

    Thank you. You have now made it to the end of the article. Congratulations!

    I'm very surprised anybody managed to read this thing the whole way through. It's over 44,000 characters of run-on diatribe about GTK.

  12. #7782
    2020, et on est sur GTK 4.4 maintenant, certaines choses ont changés.

    Je ne dis pas que GTK est parfait cela dit, il a ses défauts comme toute chose et certaines de ces critiques sont surement justifié en tant que développeurs d'apps avec GTK.

    Ce dont perso je me fous en tant qu'utilisateur.

  13. #7783
    Citation Envoyé par Illynir Voir le message
    Bref tu sembles dire qu'il y a consensus sur GTK4 et qu'il est mal-aimé, moi je te dis que non. Rien de plus, rien de moins.
    Consensus peut-être pas, mais en deux clics, sans n'avoir rien entendu du sujet, je suis tombé sur des devs de trois distros différentes et des devs d'applis majeures GTK comme Inkscape dire que c'était de la merde ou que l'équipe était très grossière avec eux. D'autres devs de plugin que j'utilise depuis des plombes (vte) se disent en parallèle insultés par l'équipe de Gnome et disent qu'il n'y a plus que quelques personnes qui prennent les décisions sur Gtk malgré de très nombreux retours négatifs de la communauté.
    Pendant ce temps des testeurs pointent que le machin marche très mal en 32 bits et ne semble même pas avoir été testé sous ces plateformes. Pas mal d'applis ont annoncé passer sous QT ou EFL malgré le peu de maintient du second.

    Donc ouais heu, quand je dois recoder une appli pour les 15 prochaines années et qu'elles fonctionnent assez largement partout, ça a de quoi me faire lever quelques sourcils .

    Citation Envoyé par Illynir Voir le message
    Ce dont perso je me fous en tant qu'utilisateur.
    Je parle en tant que dev depuis le début hein ...
    Ça n'a aucun rapport avec l'utilisateur.

  14. #7784
    C'est vrai qu'une appli n'est pas faite pour être utilisé par un utilisateur, j'avais oublié.

    En tout cas QT vous tends les bras si vous n'aimez pas GTK, c'est l'avantage du libre, Il est tellement mieux et plus personnalisable.

    C'est ironique bien entendu, travaillant dans l'équipe de RPCS3 avec une interface QT on sait très bien que c'est de la daube en barre.

  15. #7785
    Citation Envoyé par Illynir Voir le message
    C'est vrai qu'une appli n'est pas faite pour être utilisé par un utilisateur, j'avais oublié.
    Ça n'a aucun rapport. Tu peux presque toujours obtenir le rendu que tu veux avec n'importe quelle bibliothèque de rendu de fenêtre. Tu peux même tout refaire en Vulkain si ça te fais plaisir. Ce qui change c'est la quantité de travail nécessaire pour les devs pour partir de l'état A et arriver à l'état B. Mais pour l'utilisateur c'est presque transparent.

    Citation Envoyé par Illynir Voir le message
    C'est ironique bien entendu, travaillant dans l'équipe de RPCS3 avec une interface QT on sait très bien que c'est de la daube en barre.
    J'attends que tu touche à la programmation GTK4 pour qu'on en reparle

    Et le problème n'est pas GTK4 ou QT, le problème est justement que puisque pas grand monde n'aime QT, la majeure partie est sur GTK et qu'il n'y a donc guère de solution de repli possible ... du moins dans les solutions activement maintenues.

  16. #7786
    On avait déjà ces discussions il y a des années, quand GNOME 3 est sorti. Et Wayland. Et Systemd. Et…

    Au final, Gnome est toujours un excellent DE, et plein d'excellentes alternatives ont également fleuris tout autour. Je prédis que ça sera pareil pour GTK4.
    Dernière modification par George Sable ; 12/04/2022 à 07h30.
    Citation Envoyé par Amantine Aurore Lucile Dupin
    Donnez-moi la première babiole que vous aurez sur vous... Tenez, cette pokeball d'ivoire émaillé que vous avez là en main.

  17. #7787
    Tu mets en parallèle des discussions qui n'ont quand même pas grand chose à voir en dehors de la nouveauté.

    Les discussions sur les DE c'est une question d’esthétique et de praticité d'un point de vue utilisateur. Par exemple l'abandon de la métaphore du bureau par Gnome plaira (ou ne posera pas de problème) à ceux qui se foutent d'avoir des icones sur leurs bureau. Pour les autres, c'est l'age de pierre (et la fuite vers d'autres environnement de bureau).

    GTK4 ça touche surtout les programmeurs d'IHM. Persos je code en GTK4 et je trouve que c'est quand même pas mal n'imp sur bien des points, sans grande raison derrière hormis que l'équipe aime imposer ses choix de design.

    Quant à Wayland et systemd c'est déjà beaucoup plus technique et ça ne touche qu'une frange des programmeurs, et encore.
    Dernière modification par Nilsou ; 14/04/2022 à 00h03.

  18. #7788
    A gagné quete'chose Avatar de Pifou
    Ville
    Tintin, avant
    Les vrais, ils utilisent Tcl/Tk, épicétou.
    Noël Malware in CPC HS33 - Spécial années 2000
    Les voitures devaient voler, mais ça n'a pas été le cas.
    Les avions non plus d'ailleurs. A la place, ils s'écrasaient dans des tours (...)

  19. #7789
    Alors ce nouveau Ubuntu avec Firefox en snap, ça tourne bien ?
    You must gather your party before venturing forth. You must gather your party before venturing forth. You must gather your party before venturing forth. You must gather your party before venturing forth.

  20. #7790
    C'est quoi ubuntu ?

  21. #7791
    Annonce du Nvidia driver Open source: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pa...n-kernel&num=1

    Je ne pensais pas voir ça un jour de mon vivant.

  22. #7792

  23. #7793
    Ça a l'air assez limité pour l'instant. Mais c'est un premier pas, il faut voir vers où ça va. J'espère que ça aidera au moins nouveau à s'améliorer.

  24. #7794
    Ça sera forcément le cas car ça va déjà permettre le re-clock de fonctionner. Ce qui était le GROS point bloquant.

    Par contre Nouveau ne sera utile que pour les GPU avant Turing qui ne sont pas supporté par ce nouveau driver (Pour l'instant du moins). Pour Turing et plus, c'est ce nouveau driver qui sera utilisé.

    A terme l'ambition serait de passer par MESA histoire d'avoir une uniformisation globale et d'enfin pouvoir faire avancer Wayland et régler les derniers bugs bloquants.

    En tout cas l'engouement est énorme partout dans les distributions et le github de ce driver est en feu.

  25. #7795
    Citation Envoyé par Illynir Voir le message
    Annonce du Nvidia driver Open source: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pa...n-kernel&num=1

    Je ne pensais pas voir ça un jour de mon vivant.
    Wo c'est beau. Faut saluer la chose.

  26. #7796
    C'est bien pour les 1% de gamers linux je le reconnais
    Les 99% qui sont sous windows et mac os s'en foutent, c'est probablement pour ça qu'ils peuvent se permettre ça

  27. #7797
    Citation Envoyé par Illynir Voir le message
    Ça sera forcément le cas car ça va déjà permettre le re-clock de fonctionner. Ce qui était le GROS point bloquant.
    Par contre Nouveau ne sera utile que pour les GPU avant Turing qui ne sont pas supporté par ce nouveau driver (Pour l'instant du moins). Pour Turing et plus, c'est ce nouveau driver qui sera utilisé.
    Je pense qu'a terme les mecs de nouveau vont tout simplement manger le code de Nvidia non ? Vu que c'est open-source ...

    Citation Envoyé par Illynir Voir le message
    A terme l'ambition serait de passer par MESA histoire d'avoir une uniformisation globale et d'enfin pouvoir faire avancer Wayland et régler les derniers bugs bloquants.
    Lapin compris, Mesa c'est pas simplement une implémentation d'OpenGL ?

  28. #7798
    Citation Envoyé par Tilt Voir le message
    C'est bien pour les 1% de gamers linux je le reconnais
    Les 99% qui sont sous windows et mac os s'en foutent, c'est probablement pour ça qu'ils peuvent se permettre ça
    T'es au courant que le GPU c'est pas seulement du jeu vidéo hein ? C'est aussi la gestion du compositeur du bureau (Et donc Wayland), le computing, l'IA, et j'en passe. Ça va bien au delà des "gamerzzzz" et c'est la raison pour laquelle c'est important pour le milieu professionnel et les utilisateurs Linux en général.

  29. #7799
    Et surtout ce pilote vise en priorité les GPUs pour serveurs, les GPUs pour stations de travail n'ont pas encore un support complet :
    The open flavor of kernel modules supports Turing, Ampere, and forward. The open kernel modules cannot support GPUs before Turing, because the open kernel modules depend on the GPU System Processor (GSP) first introduced in Turing.

    Most features of the Linux GPU driver are supported with the open flavor of kernel modules, including CUDA, Vulkan, OpenGL, OptiX, and X11. However, in the current release, some display and graphics features (notably: G-SYNC, Quadro Sync, SLI, Stereo, rotation in X11, and YUV 4:2:0 on Turing), as well as power management, and NVIDIA virtual GPU (vGPU), are not yet supported. These features will be added in upcoming driver releases.

    Use of the open kernel modules on GeForce and Workstation GPUs should be considered alpha-quality in this release due to the missing features listed above.
    https://us.download.nvidia.com/XFree...rnel_open.html

  30. #7800
    Faut surtout mitiger un peu son enthousiasme parce finalement ce qu'ils ont fait c'est migrer tous les trucs proprios dans leur blob. cf https://twitter.com/marcan42/status/...fSI-UPVHcXFHoQ
    "Dieu est mort" · "Si le téléchargement c’est du vol, Linux c’est de la prostitution."

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